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Post by Dr. Taylor, DVM on May 3, 2022 21:27:18 GMT -6
For those who are watching the news, you may have noticed a recent story about SCOTUS documents showing a possible end to Roe v. Wade and the "end to abortion rights". This is now sparking the abortion debate once again and, like always, the debate looks more like screeching cats than civil discourse.
I often find, since the advent of social media, that no one is able to have civilized discussions on topics deemed "controversial". Personally, I have yet to find a topic that I cannot discuss rationally, and without resorting to emotional outbursts or insults. At least, not when the opposing person is being honest.
So, I would like to talk abortion.
I will preface my position on the matter with a bit of detail about myself. I a millennial, an atheist, and primarily a right leaning libertarian.
I am MOSTLY against abortion. I think that using abortion as a contraceptive is extremely immoral. Yes, even when the fetus is little more than a clump of cells. In the U.S., in 2022, there's almost no reason to have unwanted pregnancies. Condoms are widely and cheaply available. Health insurances cover a number of contraceptives for women, such as hormone pills and implants, and IUDs. Safe sex practices are widely taught and, frankly, you learn anything you want on the internet. Ignorance is not an excuse.
I am SUPPORTIVE of abortions only in the cases of rape, severe risk to the mother, and severe medical issues with the fetus/infant. As a libertarian, my natural inclination is to give everyone as much bodily autonomy as possible, but the fetus is a separate being as well, and no I'm not going to entertain 'arguments' that a fetus is little more than a parasite. I thought that way as a 20yr old kid, but I see that now as asinine. My exception to this is rape, this is the one area where the mother didn't make the conscious choice to have see. Many, especially religious individuals,would disagree with me on this and I accept that. This is also way I support it when the mothers life is as risk, and I mean true risk, not "emotional risk" or "financial hardship". Those are the risks you chose when you started having sex. Likewise, if the fetus has a severe medical issue that will cause it to suffer, it would be kinder and more humane to end that suffering early. I also support doctor assisted suicide for that reason.
So there we go, my position on the matter. I would be happy to discuss the topic further with anyone who is interested.
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Post by Rob W. Case on May 10, 2022 20:49:28 GMT -6
Dr. Taylor, your ideas relating to the issue of abortion are well thought out, and very thought provoking. I agree with you in that with all of the information and options that are available to everyone, there wouldn’t be a need for abortion. And you’re right, ignorance is not an excuse. And yet, there are so many people out there who do not think carefully, and plan things out so as to avoid the situation, and perhaps the moral implications (?) all together.
The issue of abortion at the Federal level has permeated our politics now for nearly 50 years. The law, being a Supreme Court ruling comprised of unelected judges who do not answer to the electorate, but are supposed to judge based on the Constitution, gave significant political “relief” to politicians at the state level, who never wanted to deal with the weight of such a controversial subject that has significant moral/ethical weight to it.
The Convenience Factor for Politicians Threatened:
As a Supreme Court ruling, politicians since 1973, have had the luxury of either voicing support or opposition towards what was already “the law of the land” without really getting their “hands dirty”. This dynamic is extremely important to understand because this is really the primary reason why the pro-abortion left is so irate about Roe V. Wade being overturned as a Supreme Court ruling. Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer vented his outrage and vowed to draft federal legislation protecting abortion so that the political weight of it can’t fall back on the states, since the states send people to Washington D.C. to represent them at the Federal level.
On top of that, the fate of abortion and the direction it would lead to, would fall into the hands of
the governor of each state and its legislature. This would in turn destabilize the abortion industry (more about that on the next subtopic).
The Abortion Industry:
The abortion industry is a multi-billion-dollar industry that works in this fashion. For one, abortion providers offer a service to terminate a pregnancy if the woman does not want the child. They offer a number of options on how to go about the termination (whether by pill, by ultrasound guided abortions, etc.) and charge accordingly. Second, the discarded remains (covering a number of various trimesters and stages within those trimesters) are then sold for their tissue, organs, body parts, and stem cells at exuberant prices.
On top of that, when I mentioned that abortion and its fate would fall into the hands of the governor and legislature of each state, it could destabilize the abortion industry, this is what I mean. If a governor and state legislature is predominantly runned by pro-life representatives, then it will literally choke the business aspirations of the abortion industry within that state to the degree that the industry couldn’t conduct business there. This in turn would shrink the industry, and the politicians who serve that interest group would not get as big as the support the way things stand with it being protected federally.
The Moral Aspect to it:
I fundraise for a Christian organization, runned primarily by pro-life women, who follow their convictions through the entire way. In other words, if a woman enters an unplanned pregnancy, they help her every step of the way find a job, support herself, and be a self-sufficient mother who can support her child. Every year this organization holds a banquet in the fall, and every year they have one of their clients speak on how the organization influenced them to make the right choice, expressing (emotionally) how grateful they are for having their child, and bringing their baby with them, to show what their convictions, care, and donations resulted in. The child that you see in front of you, is a child that, had it not been for this organization, would not have been there. It reminds me of this commercial from 1994 that always had a strong impact on me.
The Flaw of the Law:
Roe V. Wade was built on a lie, a law where activist heavy hitters influenced the people involved by using them to get the law passed. After it passed, “Jane Roe”, whose name was Norma Mc Corvey fought for decades against the decision that she was so involved in.
Reverting back to the beginning:
Abortion has evolved into this political, industrial, money making leviathan of a lobby group that politicians who are pro-abortion, personally benefit from. As such, the pro-abortion politician then in turn, does all he/she can to serve their special interest group, especially when they are politically safe to do so. And they keep moving the goal posts, so that now, we are actually committing full term abortions, which is flat out infanticide. They always tout “women’s reproductive rights” and “fight” for “choice”. And they always go back to their earlier selling which were used to justify it in the beginning. They tout “women’s health”, say that it needs to be around to protect a woman who is a victim of rape, incest, or some life-threatening situation where she may have to give it up. But all of those situations are extremely rare and far between, yet they’ve been the cover for a multi-billion-dollar industry that has resorted to barbarism particularly with partial birth, and outright full-term abortions. And as long as people’s hearts disregard life for money, convenience, or what have you, abortion will always be an option that will be pursued no matter what lengths they feel they’ll need to take to do what they intend to do.
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Post by Dr. Taylor, DVM on May 10, 2022 21:41:29 GMT -6
I have heard about that industry of abortion even though it is suppose to be illegal to sell parts from aborted infants. I grew up with the saying "safe, legal, and rare" whenever anyone spoke in favor of abortion. It was never celebrated, more often a decision to be mourned, but now it's become a tik tok trend. Most of the far left demand abortion be legal for any reason and in any stage of development. As if a new born is all that different than a baby in the womb at 35 weeks. My own kid was 5 weeks early, why should it be legal to abort a 35 week baby when we know they are viable? And let's go beyond that to Post-birth abortions. Yes, post-birth, as in already born. Here a read from the Journal of Ethical Medicine from 2013. jme.bmj.com/content/39/5/261It's a but of a read, but you can see how the "arguments" for abortion will be subtly added to new born infants. In fact, there's a Democrat politician that spoke about just that, I will have ti search out his name again and post it later. |
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Post by M Mitchell on Jun 3, 2022 4:30:46 GMT -6
For those who are watching the news, you may have noticed a recent story about SCOTUS documents showing a possible end to Roe v. Wade and the "end to abortion rights". This is now sparking the abortion debate once again and, like always, the debate looks more like screeching cats than civil discourse. I often find, since the advent of social media, that no one is able to have civilized discussions on topics deemed "controversial". Personally, I have yet to find a topic that I cannot discuss rationally, and without resorting to emotional outbursts or insults. At least, not when the opposing person is being honest. So, I would like to talk abortion. I will preface my position on the matter with a bit of detail about myself. I a millennial, an atheist, and primarily a right leaning libertarian. I am MOSTLY against abortion. I think that using abortion as a contraceptive is extremely immoral. Yes, even when the fetus is little more than a clump of cells. In the U.S., in 2022, there's almost no reason to have unwanted pregnancies. Condoms are widely and cheaply available. Health insurances cover a number of contraceptives for women, such as hormone pills and implants, and IUDs. Safe sex practices are widely taught and, frankly, you learn anything you want on the internet. Ignorance is not an excuse. I am SUPPORTIVE of abortions only in the cases of rape, severe risk to the mother, and severe medical issues with the fetus/infant. As a libertarian, my natural inclination is to give everyone as much bodily autonomy as possible, but the fetus is a separate being as well, and no I'm not going to entertain 'arguments' that a fetus is little more than a parasite. I thought that way as a 20yr old kid, but I see that now as asinine. My exception to this is rape, this is the one area where the mother didn't make the conscious choice to have see. Many, especially religious individuals,would disagree with me on this and I accept that. This is also way I support it when the mothers life is as risk, and I mean true risk, not "emotional risk" or "financial hardship". Those are the risks you chose when you started having sex. Likewise, if the fetus has a severe medical issue that will cause it to suffer, it would be kinder and more humane to end that suffering early. I also support doctor assisted suicide for that reason. So there we go, my position on the matter. I would be happy to discuss the topic further with anyone who is interested. A very rational explanation of your opinion. I agree with almost all of it. However, the only abortions that should happen is where the mother's life is threatened. How she got into her predicament is neither here nor there when A life is concerned. If there is no danger to her she should give birth. You must also remember that that language used in these kinds of debate has been thoroughly disinfected by mainly left wing agitators. That is why you call a life a fetus. This is the only way pro-abortionist can advance their claims. By using language that conceals the actuality they can swage their conscious. What bothers me is how they can come to their conclusions. The only explanation I can reach is the difference between left and right wing souls. Right wing souls are moral. Left wing souls are immoral. Yes they are immoral as they will tolerate affects that right wing souls can not bear. This is the fundamental difference between left and right souls. |
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Post by Dr. Taylor, DVM on Jun 24, 2022 20:17:25 GMT -6
Well, Roe v. Wade has been overturned. So the decision resides back on the states.
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Post by Rob W. Case on Jun 26, 2022 20:14:22 GMT -6
Well, Roe v. Wade has been overturned. So the decision resides back on the states. |
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Post by donnabc on Aug 29, 2022 8:15:43 GMT -6
"That's the law of the land and I accept the law of the land.' unless he doesn't.
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Post by rampage on Oct 18, 2022 0:43:46 GMT -6
The Dobbs decision is a half-century setback for the United States of America.
Astoundingly, the backlash one might have expected may not materialize in the mid-terms.
Usually the president's party loses seat in congress in mid-term elections. Not much usual about the 2022 election. Trump's just been indicted in New York. The Jan. 6 committee is tightening the noose. And now SCOTUS has implausibly taken deliberate action to usurp a Constitutional right from a majority of the People they're sworn to serve.
We'll see. November is less than half a month away.
Join us @citizenvoice.us
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Post by Rob W. Case on Oct 18, 2022 22:04:23 GMT -6
The Dobbs decision is a half-century setback for the United States of America. Astoundingly, the backlash one might have expected may not materialize in the mid-terms. Usually the president's party loses seat in congress in mid-term elections. Not much usual about the 2022 election. Trump's just been indicted in New York. The Jan. 6 committee is tightening the noose. And now SCOTUS has implausibly taken deliberate action to usurp a Constitutional right from a majority of the People they're sworn to serve. We'll see. November is less than half a month away. Join us @citizenvoice.us Trump has not been indicted, but the continuous "indictment in search of a crime" has made any and all efforts nothing less than "crying wolf". In other words, the political class has grossly overdone it trying to pin him down with something, after so many years of embracing his celebrity status. Nobody cares about January 6th except dead in the wool Democrats and the beltway insiders in Washington D.C. That's one reason why Trump's post presidential popularity still remains high and tens of thousands fill his rallies..... unlike the current occupant in the White House, who barely has anyone attend his speeches. It goes to show you where the leverage lies. The abortion question is fizzling out as we speak. After all, the repeal of Roe V. Wade has not abolished abortion. It's now a state issue, which it really should be. Those running for office in the Federal Government did not want to bear the heavy political baggage that the issue had on them, the way it used to be on them, so proponents for abortion focused their efforts to legalize it heavily on the Supreme Court, completely bypassing the route of democracy and the will of the people. Either way, the dire conditions that this country is facing due to the incompetent policies of the Biden administration, hitting people in the wallet significantly hard, is eclipsing other issues (last I heard, inflation was the number one issue this election cycle) and taking priority. But like you said, November is less than half a month away. So we shall see. |
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Post by rampage on Oct 18, 2022 22:30:02 GMT -6
I know he's got federal pending. The following is information on the NYS 220 page law suit:
Donald Trump has lost the first legal skirmish in his battle against New York's attorney general, Letitia James, and her $250 million fraud case against him: After three weeks and a court order, he's been officially served with the 220-page lawsuit.
Trump was finally served through his attorney, Alina Habba, "by sending in electronic mail a message containing a secure cloud link to pdf attachments of all the documents," James said in a court filing Thursday.
www.businessinsider.com/trump-finally-accepts-service-of-nys-250-million-fraud-suit-2022-10
I sincerely do not know: is that 220 page law suit in NY an "indictment"? Doesn't matter either way. "I am a good judge of people, animals and politician's." Grace06 Trump belongs in prison, and let out just as soon as his putrefied corpse is so repulsive even flies won't land on it. |
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Post by rampage on Oct 18, 2022 22:34:03 GMT -6
PS
Splendid.
Please do not use that single data point to extrapolate a logically non sequitur conclusion, such as he's honest, or he'll win re-election in 2024 because ...
Trump's appearances are well attended, Bidens not so much. Big deal.
President Trump has NEVER won a vote to put him in office. Never, not even for dog catcher.
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Post by rampage on Oct 18, 2022 22:56:11 GMT -6
Trump's appearances are well attended, Bidens not so much. Big deal. President Trump has NEVER won a vote to put him in office. Never, not even for dog catcher. I neglected to mention, as this was a contrast between two presidents, one former, one current: Trump never won a / the vote.
In vivid contrast:
Biden was so young when he won the election that put him into congress he only reached the minimum age to serve in the time between election, and the first day of his first term in office, or so I have read.
And Biden's been holding elective office ever since, with one hiatus, not far out of proportion to his service. Point being your observations about crowd size aside, Biden won both the vote, AND the election. It has never been otherwise. That's one thing we can also say of Trump. He has never won both vote and election. It has never been otherwise.
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Post by Rob W. Case on Oct 19, 2022 0:53:35 GMT -6
Biden may have won "the vote", and the election, but unfortunately real people weren't attached to a significant number of the ballots. And still, a majority of Americans (including a significant number of Democrats) know this, as polling reflects. It'll be interesting how this plays out in the mid-terms.
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Post by rampage on Oct 19, 2022 5:24:42 GMT -6
Biden may have won "the vote", and the election, but unfortunately real people weren't attached to a significant number of the ballots. And still, a majority of Americans (including a significant number of Democrats) know this, as polling reflects. It'll be interesting how this plays out in the mid-terms. "real people weren't attached to a significant number of the ballots" RC
You're alleging voter fraud.
"And still, a majority of Americans (including a significant number of Democrats) know this" RC
Who elected you their spokesperson? I'm in a group accurately described as a "majority", you surely haven't spoken for me here.
"Biden may have won "the vote", and the election, but unfortunately real people weren't attached to a significant number of the ballots. And still, a majority of Americans (including a significant number of Democrats) know this, as polling reflects." RC
The poll that matters is the one conducted on election day. There are numerous investigations of the other candidate, including the law suit in New York State.
"It'll be interesting how this plays out in the mid-terms." RC
You, among several others.
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Post by rampage on Jan 13, 2024 22:00:10 GMT -6
I am MOSTLY against abortion. DT, certainly abortion is no panacea. BUT !! If you are sincere about being a "a right leaning libertarian" you are at odds with your own ideology as you label it.
The political term "conservative" (the "right leaning" in your self-definition) root word is "conserve". Just what is it you're trying to "conserve"?
Genuine libertarians are opposed to government authoritarianism, as well expressed by the author of our Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson. Yet you seem to prefer that government bureaucrats make such decisions, instead of the taxpaying voter in consultation with her doctor, her husband, and her clergyman.
The validity of this position is a legitimate issue. BUT !! It is a separate issue from honesty, integrity. You Dr. T are free to take ANY position on this issue you wish. BUT !! The position you take is conspicuously at odds with your own self-definition. The word for this is "hypocrisy".
If you think government authoritarianism is preferable to Liberty, you are entitled. But then please do not sully the admirable reputation genuine conservatism has earned, by claiming the label while opposing the principle.
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